Inside Modern PR: From Acquisitions To AI And The Culture That Holds It Together

We dig into what makes PR agencies grow without losing their edge, from acquisitions and integration to talent, culture, and the real role of AI. We share concrete ways to keep client trust, avoid burnout, and build teams that win.

• relationships as the core of acquisitions and integration
• communicating change to clients before headlines
• independence versus integration and preserving the secret sauce
• AI as a tool for higher value, not a replacement
• the barbell talent model and demand for SMEs
• gaps in business skills and project management training
• culture that reduces burnout and attracts top talent
• practical advice for agency owners on reinvention and fit

If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Give us your feedback, ideas, guest suggestions, or just let us know what you're thinking anytime. The email address is hello@vvkagency.com. Make sure to follow the show so you never miss an episode

Guests:

Ray Day, APR Ray is a recognized voice and leader in communications and public relations. He joined Stagwell Global in February 2020, bringing more than three decades of experience as a chief communications officer leading global communications teams, brands, and agencies.

Kimberly Hoyle Kimberly is a senior growth executive with 20 years of experience shaping multi-year growth strategies and corporate transformation plans. As a trusted advisor to C-suite executives, she drives alignment between operations, business development, and talent strategy to create scalable, sustainable growth.

Peter Van Dyke Peter is CEO and co-founder of VVK PR + Creative, a Detroit-based integrated communications agency. Under his leadership, VVK has grown from 3 to 29 employees and from $1.8M to $4.1M in revenue over 3.5 years, serving mission-driven organizations throughout Metro Detroit and beyond.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Table: PR Growth
• 2:51 Independence Versus Integration
• 5:10 Culture As The Dealbreaker
• 10:06 Client Partnership Over Transactions
• 13:35 Scaling Without Losing The “Secret Sauce”
• 18:23 Due Diligence And Fit
• 23:05 Communicating Change To Clients
• 25:04 Is PR Dead Or More Vital
• 27:10 Human Plus Machine: Using AI Well
• 32:05 Talent, Hiring, And The New Barbell
• 38:24 Teaching Business Skills And PM
• 42:20 Beating Burnout With Culture And Joy
• 47:03 One Piece Of Advice For Owners
• 50:10 Relationships Trump Everything

Transcript

Craig Fahle: 0:18

Hey greetings and welcome to the V VK Podcast. I'm your host, Craig Folly. Today, we're digging into what PR agency growth really looks like. From independence to integration, from acquisitions to industry shifts, and from talent challenges to the future of AI and automation. We've got a packed conversation ahead on the VVK Podcast. Hey greetings once again. Thanks for being here today. And joining us are three voices who bring very different, equally valuable perspectives on the state of the public relations industry. Peter Van Dyke, of course, is the CEO of VVK. He's grown the agency independently and is now expanding through the acquisition of Stern Strategy. We also have with us Kimberly Hoyle, a seasoned strategist with deep experience inside major agencies and a real keen sense of where the business is headed. And also Ray Day, Vice Chair at Stagwell, offering a wide-angle view of how the communications landscape is evolving across clients, talent, and technology. So we've got a packed show, a lot to get to today. I would like to welcome Peter, Kimberly, and Ray. Thanks for being with us. Thanks, Craig. Great to be here. So we're going to talk a little bit about uh agency life, growth in agency life. And this is going to be some insider baseball here, but that's okay. It's actually an important discussion to have. We're also going to have a little bit of an opportunity to talk about what's working, what's not, what's next for agencies. Um, and so we'll get right into this. And we really want to start out talking a bit about growth. Uh VVK has obviously seen some some growth recently. Uh Peter, you've been building this agency independently. Uh, you recently acquired Stern strategies, and we folded them into the VVK family. Uh Kim, you've been inside large agencies. You've been working on, you know, getting people together, finding different companies to to look at and bring into the family and your career as well. And Ray, you've been integrating agencies at Stagwell at a big scale. Um, this is your company is just it's staggering in terms of how large it is becoming. Um at this point, are we really even talking about the same sort of business? Uh, when we look at a company like VVK, Cameron, we look like what you've been doing and where Stagwell is where what are we seeing? Are these the same industries? Peter, I'm gonna let you sort of look at that first.

Peter Van Dyke: 2:36

Yeah, I mean, there are different scales of businesses, but I know it's something that Ray and I agree on because we've talked about this. Uh while the finances are different, I think the core root of the work that we do is the same, especially when you're scaling um at a global scale or local scale in acquisitions. And the core root of that is in relationships. And so, you know, it's the finances you can always work out in a spreadsheet, the relationships that you develop with uh those who you are you are acquiring, with the team you're integrating. Uh, that can't be mapped and can't be added and can't be subtracted. That is um personal time and effort and investment, uh, and really understand where the cultural nuances are and if that will work uh with the growth and the scale of your company. So you have to start with really knowing your company's culture and and and so you can understand how to kind of compare and contrast with those that you are going to work with, whether it's one new employee or a major acquisition, and then really map out how that will integrate and if it will not only work internally with your company, but will also resonate with your clients. Um and so, you know, again, very different scales. Uh VVK is pretty local with a bit of a national presence. Um Ray works at a very global scale, and Kim has worked uh across the nation. And I would think and I would hope that the root of all of this work is based in relationships.

Craig Fahle: 3:56

Uh but who wants to sort of tag off of that one there? Go ahead, Kim.

Kimberly Hoyle: 4:00

No, I agree. I think um, you know, when you go into the the the thought process of MA, especially in this space, you're thinking um you're either scaling for talent or capabilities. But I think um the relationships and the integration piece of it is the most important, right? So making sure that um you're culturally aligned, making sure that those employees who are going to stay have an understanding of what the acquisition, what the acquisition even means and and how it um how it will kind of unfold for clients. Um and then on the client side, making sure that the clients understand that it while you are expanding your capabilities and and the talent bench, um, that the foundation remains the same and the level of service and and and how you um engage and manage your clients.

Craig Fahle: 4:54

Yeah, I I think we're gonna get into that in a little bit too, sort of that that part of this conversation in just a little bit. But Ray, I want to get your sort of take on this too, and what we're seeing right now and and uh and how you manage that.

Ray Day: 5:05

Yeah, and I I'll start out and say which one of these people is not like the other. And uh I come from being the non-agency person. Most of my career has been in-house. I spent 28 years at Ford, 10 leading communications, and two and a half at IBM. So I am wired as the client person. I still think like the client. And I I agree wholeheartedly with what Peter said about we're in a relationship business. And the reason that when I was a client, I hired an agency was to give me what I didn't have in-house. And those relationships turn into partnerships. And you know, we've been talking, and I know what we'll talk about today is is the agency dead with AI coming and are we going to be replaced by machines? This is always going to be a relationship business. It's always going to be about partnership. And when you hear me talk about agency, I will always use the term agency partner because from a client standpoint, that's always what I want: a partner to help me be smarter, think more strategically, and bring me what I didn't have or I don't have naturally in-house. So very, very much I think we are a growth industry because business has become so complex today. And we need those outside in partnerships more than ever.

Craig Fahle: 6:26

Well, at what point, though, does it become difficult to manage? Because, you know, again, VVK, as Peter suggested, we're still very localized. Um, you know, we're growing, but at a responsible rate. We're still making sure that we can maintain those relationships as best we can and and not lose sight of that sort of customer focus that we need. Is there a point where, though, that becomes difficult to do um as as sort of an independent agency where you're growing to a point where that's gonna get out of control?

Ray Day: 6:55

Scale is good, but you never want to lose your secret sauce. What brought you to the your point where you were able to scale, you need to maintain that. So whatever it is you uniquely bring to clients, preserve that. And that means probably the top person in the agency won't be as hands-on with as many clients long term, but he or she is going to hire and bring in talent that still maintains that secret sauce, whether it's V VK or whether it's others, that really, really delivers. You pay people money because you need expertise that you don't have. Those are relationships typically. That's expertise you don't have. That's a different way of thinking. You know, I when I spent 30 plus years in-house, I know when you work inside of a company, you can become very insular. That's the beauty of bringing people in who have different perspectives, different relationships, and frankly, a candor that you can't always get in-house. People are willing to shake you and say, you're headed in the wrong direction. Let me save you from yourself.

Craig Fahle: 8:01

Is there a r point though where, you know, obviously growth is driven, revenue is driven by growth? Uh, you know, you make some choices. Is there a point where a revenue point where it's difficult to be independent any longer?

Ray Day: 8:15

I think it's how you define independent. I think when you look at big agencies today, and this has been happening, you know, we have a lot of consolidation going on in holding companies today. When you look at some of the icons of our industry, that consolidation is because big isn't necessarily better. And I worked with a lot of big agencies, holding companies my entire career. And what I'd never wanted was number one, big company politics, big company fat, and big company slowness. And so where I do think I see the most growth in agencies today is in the medium to the small size, the very individualized agencies. But what people want is that combination where you can still provide end-to-end services. What has haunted some of the big holding companies today is they've grown, but they've grown the overhead, and they perhaps have forgotten what really allowed them to grow in the first place, which was client service.

Craig Fahle: 9:16

Kim, I want to sort of get your thoughts uh on this whole thing as well. I mean, part of your job has been making sure that, you know, the the people that you're getting together have cultures that are going to fit, have sort of uh the ability to mesh together without creating sort of these internal politics he was discussing. What's the biggest challenge there? Um, because again, as you grow as an agency, I mean there's always going to be different pressures on that agency. You're gonna have less time to deal with individual clients than you did. So what's the sort of the biggest challenge and the things you look for in determining whether or not there's a natural progression to grow?

Kimberly Hoyle: 9:49

Yeah. Uh so I think um one of the challenges is when you begin that the integration process, um, you typically you're thinking about it from a, you know, the most senior level executives who are at the table and kind of um facilitating the deal, finalizing the deal, and determining how um how you're going to um engage and interact with each other internally. Um what I have seen that becomes a challenge is when you do that and you don't think about that management layer who really has the ear of the practitioners who are actually doing the work, right? So you get their buy-in. And when you have that, then that ideally will carry over into the client relationships and how how you're still supporting and servicing the clients, because at the end of the day, that's what really matters. But when you don't pay attention to that that layer of management, who can really see themselves in this integration, they see where they fit in, and then they're able to carry those messages down to their teams so that they too see where they fit in in this integration and that their work matters and what they're doing matters, and it's only going to get opportunity for growth. Um I think when you I've experienced where when you miss that, uh it can really the integration really throws off the the end product and how you're supporting your clients, and then you start to see client churn, you start to see employees walk away and and it just kind of falls apart. But so I think in in the um in the grand scheme of things, what I look for is the ability for um management, the senior management to say this is a um sort of an all hands on deck in some way um effort to make sure that those who are going to be here, those that we value, those who are going to be supporting the clients on a day-to-day basis, um see themselves in this integration and see themselves as a part of it, because that again, that will determine how we continue to service and support our clients.

Craig Fahle: 11:57

Well, so so Peter, I I do want to bring this back in-house a little bit, talk a bit about VVK, because when when this company started, you know, there were the three founders, uh, a couple of employees, um, a lot of clients. So I knew there was going to be a certain amount of growth that the company had to do in terms of personnel uh just to service those clients that we did bring on board in those early days. Um, but talk a little bit about a couple of major decisions, pivotal decisions in your mind that sort of accelerated that trajectory in a in a natural, healthy way, as opposed to just, you know, sort of slowly creeping along.

Peter Van Dyke: 12:30

Sure. So I I think in the um the first two and a half years of organic growth before the stern acquisition, um it really it's no different in many ways into how we approach the stern acquisition. It was every every person is pivotable, pivotal, pardon me, to the success of the company. Um and when when we do interviews at V VK, you know, we're pretty direct about who our what our culture is, who our clients are, and how those things have to work together. Um, I often say, I'm usually involved in the final interviews of of most of our team members. Um and in those interviews, I I kind of double down on the fact that I often say we're a customer service company and PR and video is our product, um, kind of like Uber is a technology company and kind mobility is their product. Uh, because at the end of the day, if our customers aren't here, then we're not here. And so our team has to understand going in that they walk in thinking about how do I serve the customer best this day, and they walk out thinking about how I serve the customer best tomorrow. And if they don't have that customer service mindset, then they're not going to be successful at this agency. And frankly, I think probably in most agency environments, uh, they won't be successful. Um, so I think it's really instilling um a culture from a number of different standpoints. We also have, we leave a lot of values and principles in this agency where are really important to us. Um, but that customer service piece is really important. So in those early days, really it was all about hiring really well. And we were, we were very um intentional about it, but I'll also say very lucky. You know, we hired a lot of people who are um smarter than me, and they were able to jump in and lead these clients um in a way that felt very seamless. Um, but that all started with having real honest conversations about um what our principles are and how we lead from a client standpoint. Um and I'll say, you know, when we when we brought in the Stern acquisition, that was not on our uh 2025 plans this year. Um but you don't, you know, when we get a good opportunity in front of you, you you go for it. Um and I remember, you know, pivotal, pivotal moment there, uh, and Ned Ward, who's our senior vice president over our national team, talks about this a lot. Um, he was talking to five different agencies, everything from larger national global agencies to some smaller across the nation. Uh, and when my first interview with him and then his two PR senior PR directors, um, Jen and Stephanie, the first question I asked is, you know, this is gonna be kind of scary to you. You guys have, each of you have worked here for 15, 18, 20 years. What are your fears and how can I help mitigate them in this process? And they said there was no other company that asked him that question. They mostly said, What do the client contracts look like? You know, what's what's your profit margin on each service? They went to all the numbers, all the details. And I went in kind of wondering who they are as people and what their kind of fears and challenges are in this process. Because if I understood those, uh, and then I can also take those and kind of match them to our agency values and principles and help mitigate those fears based upon how we operate. I knew the rest would work. I wasn't too worried about that. The numbers, again, spreadsheets figure numbers out for us. Uh, the the relationship piece um uh is a little bit more difficult and takes more time and and really understanding kind of what makes that person tick and how you can work with them. Um, so I I think you know, those two the the pivotal pivotal moments for us have all been around our hiring. Um uh we're we're a people-powered company. And so that's the most important thing you do.

Craig Fahle: 15:54

Well, okay, I want to get into this for just a second because you mentioned that this was not on your bingo card for for the for when it happened, right? Um so why? Was there was there something, a gap that you were trying to fill in and just saying at some point we need to do this? And then it's just sort of fell into our your lap. I don't want to say that because that's not exactly how it happens, but kind of well, yeah. But I mean, is this something that you always intended to do with V VK?

Peter Van Dyke: 16:18

It was. Um, you know, I think we we go where our customers customers demand us to go. So our clients, we have amazing clients in in Michigan. Uh many of them have a really high statewide profile and we're looking to build a national profile. Uh this is some work that we were doing on their behalf, um, but I knew we could do it better. And I knew we certainly didn't have the skill set relationships with national reporters and national publications and national conference planners uh to do that work successfully in the long run. Uh but this was in my like two to three year vision. You know, where it's it's it's a bit of a demand, it's not a high demand, we'll get there, maybe a strategic strategic hire here and there. Uh and then when the Stern opportunity came to me through a broker, Janet Tyler, who is very well known in Michigan and nationally, uh, I was ready to hit delete on the email and I looked at the subject line. Subject lines are very important. Um, so I looked at the subject line and it talked about a national thought leadership executive visibility organization that works with clients that are directly in our industry verticals. Uh and I said, this kind of looks too good to be true. And so that was October of 2024, and then by February 28th, we had acquired uh the firm. So it was a really quick process, but I think it was so quick because it was such a great alignment.

Craig Fahle: 17:34

Well, I uh I want to get Kim and Ray's perspective on sort of that sort of similar issue here in just a second. Ray, I'm gonna start with you for just a second because you know you're constantly integrating agencies at Stagwell. So what makes an acquisition something that actually adds something rather than just you know adding headcount to a company? So so what are some of the red flags that you're looking out for before you decide whether or not to go that route?

Ray Day: 17:57

Yeah, and I'll I'll build on what Peter just talked about. It's the homework phase. And the assimilation happens very seamlessly if you've done your homework during the buying process. And when I joined Stagwell five years ago, we were 20 agencies worldwide. Today we're 75. We went from a private company to a public company. And I worked with some of the big hold codes and we learned what we liked and what we didn't like. And my bosses worked with some of the big hold codes, and we learned what we liked and we didn't like. And what we didn't like was where the various entities within a holding company tried to kill each other. And I remember when I was at Ford and we dealt with a very, very large, well-known holding company that everyone here would know about, but I won't uh disclose them. I remember calling the CEO one day and saying, Martin, uh this is a good thing. I think you just gave it away right there. Perhaps I said, uh, this is crazy. Um you I've got my own politics, and now I've got all your your agencies warring against each other, and they keep telling me, I keep telling them, here's what our business need is, and they keep telling me where it falls within the PL. And I said, Martin, I don't care. Keep your politics to yourself, sort yourself out, and you had best to be breed approach. And that was the first time in that holding company that they had done something like that. We are a very acquisitive company at Stagwell. We are on a growth trajectory, we're a young company, we're data-led, digital first, and future focused. And when we're looking at buying others, we are one very first thing making sure it's complementary to what we already have. We don't want people to come in and try to kill each other. That is not client-friendly, and it's not what the client wants. And I get involved in a lot of the due due diligence. And one of the questions I ask to Peter's point is walk me through your thinking of why you get hired. What is it that drives you? What's your passion? And I find two camps I find people in some agencies that Are transactionally focused. And then I find others who really want partnerships. And it's not just about the SOW and the EBITDA. Now it's all important to Peter's point. But if the first response and the first part of the due diligence is about here's what drives me, here's why I got into this business, here's what we do for our clients, here's how we've helped the client, and then in turn helped ourselves. That's what I look for. And that's what makes a perfect partner. If you find that during the homework phase, you will be perfect in the assimilation phase.

Craig Fahle: 20:35

Well, you can tell that we've just moved to a new office. One of our sound panels just fell off a wall in the middle of this. Uh this is the great thing about uh about recording here. Um Kimberly, I want to get back to you on this one. Uh, you have been on the inside of a number of of these types of situations. Um, what makes different firms work together versus just coexist sort of under one roof? What how do you sort of get these teams to mesh?

Kimberly Hoyle: 20:58

Sure. Um I I agree. I think the the homework phase is incredibly important, the due diligence um and and really understanding if you are on the acquiring side, understanding what you are acquiring. So that um, you know, the conversations around uh EPDA and profitability and margin, um that can a lot of times take uh take precedent over who are we actually getting ready to partner with and who are we actually getting ready to marry in this in this transaction. Um and I think that when you kind of skate through that phase, it shows immediately. Uh once you, once the ink dries, it it shows immediately that there was no alignment or real synergy in the way we do business or the way you do business and how that will complement um each other and how ultimately it will benefit the clients on the other side of things. So I think um if I could say humanizing the process and really kind of taking the robotics out of it and saying there are people on the other side of this transaction who are going to um work here, who are going to look at us as partners and want to um bring us bring us in or grow with us as we grow. Um, I think when you take that approach and and and realize that there's a human on the other side of this, you know, major transaction, that's when you get um the benefit of um an acquisition or a merger and you you begin to see the that growth and the scale is was worth you know the the effort of going through the transaction.

Craig Fahle: 22:48

Well, I sort of want to ask one more question of each of you, real quick, on on this part of our discussion here. And that is, you know, we we've been talking a lot about growth and and mixing teams. What do you need to tell customers, clients, to ensure to them that just because you're growing doesn't mean they're going to lose the attention that they that they maybe really appreciated about you when you were a smaller firm?

Peter Van Dyke: 23:10

Yeah, you know, I think that is it's that conversation that should be discussed at the very beginning of an acquisition process because that's your value proposition. So it should feel seamless and natural when you start telling customers about this after you've gone through months of due diligence and you're ready to sign the deal and possibly go through a rebranding. That should just feel completely natural because you've been talking about since day one in that first conversation of the why. Um and so, you know, for the the Stern acquisition in in February, it really because it was it made perfect sense for these two companies to come together, that that conversation was very easy to have for the clients that they've been working with, many for 10, 15 years, some some 20. Uh, we said your your team's not going to change, but your uh capabilities within the team that you work with are gonna expand exponentially. And so those clients were like, wow, there's an opportunity. One, they they see an opportunity to work with the same people, but kind of have um more services within the team that they're working with. Um we see that as a new business opportunity. So that's great for us when we see that. And so it's it's it's definitely more important for the firm that you're acquiring because those those are the clients who are gonna have the the bigger shift. Uh, but you also the the company that's doing the acquiring, you don't want your clients ever to read about you in the news before you've talked to them. That's kind of the 101 of um best or worst practices, whichever way you're where you're doing it. So uh, you know, before the news hits, we would have a conversation with every client saying, hey, you're gonna see in the news that we acquired as our agency. Um, what this allows us to do is A, B, C, D. Um, and you know, if you'd like to hear more about that, we'd love to bring them in. And again, it was in certain acquisitions, maybe it's a harder conversation. Probably at larger scale acquisitions, it's a harder conversation. But for us, um, the root of those conversations were based in our very first conversation we had about the acquisition. So it felt very organic and seamless.

Craig Fahle: 25:01

All right. Well, let's sort of let's switch over here. Just for the interest of time here, I do want to talk a little bit about the industry itself and the state of the industry, because there's always a lot of concern about that. We you mentioned, you know, AI at the beginning of this conversation and a lot of changes that are taking place. Some people are suggesting that PR is dead, others are suggesting that PR has been, you know, it's never been more important given the amount of channels that people can go to to find information. What do you think is more accurate in terms of the the health of the profession and and its need right now? And I'm looking at whoever wants to go first, but I'm thinking this county.

Peter Van Dyke: 25:39

I'm looking at Ray. He's been talking about this across the nation. Okay, and his other role as chair of PRSA.

Ray Day: 25:44

Well, yeah, there you go. I'm also chair of PRSA, and yeah, I don't know how to say no. I keep taking on more and more titles and jobs. I have never been more excited about this profession and what we provide to business and to society today. And for me, it goes back to this ongoing kind of nonsensical discussion where we've been asking to have a seat at the table. And you will never be asked to have a seat at the table if you're adding value. And I do a lot of speaking on campus. I mentor a lot of people who are starting out in this profession. And my number one piece of advice to them is be a business partner first. Be the best at business acumen, be able to speak the language of a CFO. And then, of course, secondarily, people assume you know how to do communications, you know how to do all the tactical things we do. That's a given. That's why you're being hired. But be a business partner and you are absolutely going to be in need more than ever before. And I see that today. And so I think this profession is alive and well. And I know we'll talk about AI. And I think people who are still fearing AI or worrying about being replaced by AI really just need to realize we're in the year 2025 and they need to get up to speed. Very true.

Peter Van Dyke: 27:07

Yeah, you know, I'm finding two things. I think one, it's you know, it's a tool that helps you do your job. And there are new tools have been created since beginning a time to help you do your job. And this is just a really um quickly advancing and adapting one. Uh the the thing that I both appreciate about it and both fear about it is it's just speeding up the process that much more. I feel like during COVID, things got quicker. You could have 12 meetings a day because you didn't have to drive to somebody's office. And so suddenly what was a three-meeting day became a 12-meeting day, and you're going back to back to back. And and so now with AI, there's certain processes that we've done internally that we're now using AI to help us facilitate. Um that just makes the the day go there's so much more speed in what you have to do because expected because of the tools that you have. But what it also allows you to do is spend more time in the areas that AI can't replace, which is being what Ray just said is a critical thinking partner that you you really can't can't train a computer to do. And so it's allowed me to say, okay, there's these kind of administrative things that AI can do for me, or at least do the first draft of it. So I don't have to start from a blank screen. But it's allowed me then to be more present in other areas of my job where I would be, you know, working all day long on a Saturday to catch up to uh because I didn't have tools uh available to me to kind of speed up the administrative piece.

Craig Fahle: 28:25

Aaron Powell Wow, that's great insight, Peter. So that's the one thing that drives me crazy about AI is the compliments it pays you.

Ray Day: 28:32

And if I just add to that, since all technology, and we we're so fixated today on AI, but if you look at the history of technology, it's always been about human plus machine equals a better world. And the human has always been in charge. And one of the my favorite things to do on stage, I was speaking at a conference a couple of years ago, and I asked a friend, I said, you know, I'm gonna get all these questions about AI and it's gonna replace us. And he mailed me a very yellowed photo or a headline of a newspaper from 1966, and it was a newspaper article, front page of math teachers protesting calculators. Calculators were going to put math teachers out of business. How we can't let this happen. The world is ending, and what has been the result? No, human plus machine has equaled a better world, and that's what we have to keep in mind. And for us in communications and PR, what we really need to do is move from this as a productivity play to a high value play. Yeah, we can dabble around and we can eliminate low-value tasks and we should, but the real opportunity is how do you make this higher impact, higher value to help clients and businesses grow and get better?

Kimberly Hoyle: 29:49

I agree. And I think it goes back to that in the space of being a partner, right? With your being a business partner to your client. So you should be thinking about how can we bring more value? How can we make um how can we make the engagement better and how can we enhance it? And it should always be sort of this um proactive thinking when you are working, not as a consultant, but when you take on your client's business as your own. And you're always looking at how do you grow, what tools do we need, what tools are going to be necessary for that growth. And I think it, you know, coming into the um into the client engagement with that mindset of just deepening the relationship, really understanding the bit their business at a micro and macro level, and then understanding how uh these tools and technology will enhance um not only the work that you're doing for them, but so that you understand to Ray's point about, you know, be able to speak the finance language. You don't have to be a CFO, but you need to understand, you know, if those are drivers for their business, you need to understand that language. And so to me, AI is no different, right? You and I think from what I've seen, clients are um kind of looking at their business partners to help educate them in some ways on how um they might gain efficiencies or or better level of service with um with the technology. So I think being in that um, you know, in that showing yourself in that light as that partner, that from a business development perspective, what I think of, I'm looking at organic growth, and then we can go, you know, we can go deeper and and have a longer, longer standing relationship.

Craig Fahle: 31:38

I I think one of the concerns that that people have in this business about AI, though, is that you know, we talk about, you know, am I gonna be replaced by AI? But there may be some clients or or customers, potential customers out there that look at, you know, the availability of Chat GTP and say, I don't need somebody to write that. I can just do it myself. How do you respond to that sort of mindset about I guess that sort of undervalues a lot of of what we bring to the table? And and I say that, I'm not gonna put those words in any of your mouths, but I think sometimes people do sort of undervalue the thought process that goes into proper messaging.

Peter Van Dyke: 32:09

Yeah, I'd say that potential customer is looking for a transactional relationship, and that's not the business that we're in. Um yeah, you can put, I don't know, a bunch of talking points into a chat GPT and it gives you a press release. Um, we we had a situation with a reporter that clearly took a press release and put it into AI to create an article that we noticed when it was in the in the paper. Um, I forgot about that. Yeah. And so, you know, you still need the human to control the machine. Um, and so that's not our client. The the clients that we work with are the ones that want to call us at five o'clock and say, I have this really complicated issue and I need to talk to you about it. And and that goes back to what Ray was saying. It it becomes where's where's the high value in this relationship? Because the low value was really never what we were engaging, engaged to do. That was just a part of the facilitation of the high value work. And so if a customer said it to me, I'd say, well, go find another firm. And I'd be totally fine with that.

Ray Day: 33:04

Yeah, and one example, we have a client right now that has we're helping them with crisis. And we need the critical thinking of people who have been through crisis and crisis and crisis. But what we're using AI to do is ingest 10 years of this particular crisis, what's the history? And we're asking, we're making AI our wingman or our wing person and saying from a predictability standpoint, from a trend standpoint, when this happens, what typically is the outcome? And who do we need to communicate with first? Who is biggest, who's going to be the most impacted, and what do we need to know? That's human plus machine equals better crisis communications.

Kimberly Hoyle: 33:46

Yeah. And I think remembering that it's a tool. It's not a replacement, it's not, you know, a substitute, it is a tool. And that's I mean, it's just to me, it's that plain. Uh, and when you see it work that way, um it clients understand you know where it fits into the overall strategy. But at the end of the day, it's a tool. And yes, you still need the human element, and you you there's no replacing that.

Craig Fahle: 34:13

All right. The human element, we need to talk about that just a little bit because uh again, hiring the right people, Peter, you talked about it early on in this conversation, how important that is. You're still directly involved in that process here at VVK. Um, where are we having trouble hiring right now? What roles are becoming difficult to fill, and what skills are you looking for that you're perhaps not seeing in the quantity that you'd like is a nice way to put it. Um, who wants to go first on that one? I see a smile. Kim, come on now.

Kimberly Hoyle: 34:43

So I I think that um, you know, the the industry has evolved. Um, and then when you see consulting agencies, uh firms like Deloitte and and Boston Consulting Group um acquiring um marketing and data, you know, companies to expand their services, the competitive field just gets it's gotten bigger, right? And so the level of thinking that you need, it's not just someone who uh study public relations or journalism. You really need those strategic thinkers, those who um understand public policy, those who understand economics, those who understand um the strategy that goes behind developing a key message and not just the creative side of it or just you know high-level talking points or bullet points. So what I've seen is um really trying to, from a talent perspective, trying to um get a little bit of get away from, not fully, but just in a little bit away from the the traditional um PR and journalism uh um degrees and and really looking at those that are uh go a little bit more deeper because I think that's what the clients are requiring today, that you be um a more well-rounded partner that can support their business needs.

Craig Fahle: 36:10

You've been you uh you're involved with PRSA as well, um, which you know means you're dealing with people at every level of their career. Um where are you seeing weaknesses?

Ray Day: 36:19

I think the model has changed within agencies, the hiring model, the people management model. And it used to be a pyramid where you'd have, you know, the really, really uh senior people who were either administrative or they were subject matter experts, and you had this middle layer that were the, you know, all the terms we put on agency people when they've served there so long. And then we had the the really big bottom layer, which was the cultivating, the farm team that was always coming through. I think the pyramid has turned into a barbell. And where I see client need is on the one side, more demand than ever for subject matter experts. Deep, deep expertise. Either you've been through the war on crisis, or you have deep, deep relationships in public affairs or in state government or in city government, whatever it is, people want that expertise and that experience. We've stripped out the middle layer. We don't need the checkers anymore and the people with the alphabet soup titles, but we do need that constant flow of people at the entrepreneurial level. And for me, and I've been in this business a while, whether I was in-house or today, I always look at three attributes in anyone that I'm hiring. And I, like Peter, like to be the last word on particularly the senior hires. But the three things I look for of people who will be successful in this business are strategic, aggressive, and I mean aggressive, that this is a full contact sport. We're we play to win. Whether you're in comms or PR or in public affairs, this is hand-to-hand combat. And we're here to help the client win. And then connected, which goes to that relationship business. There's a reason we sometimes call this PR, that R is strategic, and we need people who know that and who can cultivate those relationships.

Peter Van Dyke: 38:08

Yeah, so there's two pieces. Um one is a little bit of what Ray just spoke to. Um, and and that is the the area around the strategy piece that's that's a little bit challenging to hire for. Um, but it's interesting. I'm involved highly involved in Waynesate University. I chaired the board over the communications school, and Ray's involved in the board because he doesn't have enough to do. Um, so he volunteers there as well, which we appreciate. And I was involved with the communications department on uh reviewing the curriculum and looking for some changes to curriculum to reflect the future of our industry. And there's two pieces when Ray talked about re uh entrepreneurialism. There's no class in the communications school at Wayne State, and there still isn't. So I still have that critique and I'm I'm working with them on it, that teaches basic business principles and practices. And I said, if if you're gonna advance advance in your career in any career, and the the college at Wayne State is fine performing in communication arts. I'm like, you can be a ballerina or a PR person. I don't care. If you're advancing your career, at some point you're gonna manage a budget, you're gonna manage HR, you're gonna manage a team. Um, and there's not one class at Wayne State that teaches that um in the PR department or in the communications department. Um, and I remember when I acquired the first agency I acquired, Bergmuir had an associates, and I had no idea what the hell I was doing. I was like 34 years old. And I really thought at that point of going to get my uh associates in business at McComb Community College, because I didn't have time for MBA. Like I'm running this new firm, I'm growing the clients, I'm integrating new clients. I don't have time to go to MBA or because I get an MBA. That's that's I just didn't have the capacity for it. But I literally thought going to get like associates in business, just like learn the basics of business because nobody had taught me other than learning on site a bit at the agency where I'd worked. The other piece of it, which is um much more tactical, is uh project management tools. They don't teach project management. And it's such a core part of the work that we do, particularly at agencies. Um Of how to use project management software, how to product manage a team, how to work with a team on deadlines. And it doesn't have to be a full course, but I think it should be a chapter. Um, and I said it's you know, we expect that of every team member here to really use so many different layers of product management software to manage our clients and our team internally. And that's taught on site. And I'm like, why isn't that taught at school? This is pretty applicable to any degree or any um profession that you're gonna graduate in. Um so you know, this is a little bit more at the entry level, but uh entrepreneurialism and product management will carry you all the way through. And I'm not seeing those being taught in the PR departments.

Craig Fahle: 40:36

Some of us gravitate towards those things more so than others. But uh you know, Ray, I want to get back to something you said here, and we're running out of time, so I sort of want to get to this real fast. But you you mentioned, you know, that this is you're you're in it to win it. This is a fight, you know, and and this is uh sometimes a stressful profession. Uh agencies can be particularly stressful just because you're bouncing so many different clients, you're going from subject to subject, burnout is a real thing. And part of that stuff that you suggest that you're really lacking, that subject matter expertise, that's just experience. That's just knowledge that comes from years and years on the job. And if people are burning out, you're not going to have some of that experience that you need. So, what needs to be done to make sure that this is an industry, especially agency life, that, you know, is sustainable for 20, 30 year careers?

Ray Day: 41:22

Absolutely. It goes to another piece of advice when I give to young people when I speak on campus. I have my top 10 list of things that you need to think about. And number one is love or leave what you do. This is not a job. You fall in love with this business. And you know, a lot of times people are asking me, particularly young people, should I go in-house? Should I go agency? Should I go nonprofit? Should I go government? And I say, yes, yes, yes, yes. Try everything out, and you will quickly decide what you fall in love with. And if you love what you do, you will be world-class at it. And that is the secret to success. And I've used it in my own life. I had a role in-house that I had just spoken on campus, and I was driving back to work, and I thought about what I told the young people, and I said, you know, I don't really love what I'm doing right now. And I repotted myself and I said, I'm gonna find, I'm gonna do something that I really love. So my my biggest advice to all of us, whether we're in-house, whether we're agency, whether we're a student, whether we're up and coming, whatever we're doing, love or leave what you're doing and be world-class at it once you fall in love with it.

Peter Van Dyke: 42:36

You know, I can't speak to um other agencies, but when we started V VK, we have this culture book that we that we use and it goes through our principles and our culture, everything from kind of um our our core values to project management. And and one, there's a couple of things in the culture book um that relate to uh basically experiencing joy in your job every day. And at V VK, if you're not experiencing joy in your job, then maybe find another job.

Craig Fahle: 43:01

Um and I hope uh Some of us thrive on adrenaline too. So I'm a I'm a big uh, you know, I like navigating the crisis space when I can.

Peter Van Dyke: 43:09

Yeah. So you know, Laura Les Bronce, our senior vice president in Michigan, has said, no, she's worked at large companies, large global companies, small nonprofits all over the country. And she's I never worked somewhere that's that's less toxic um um than than V VK. It's just, you know, we we laugh through problems, you know, we we have fun every single day. And it is a tough job. It's it's it can be a little chaotic. You kind of feel like you're in a hundred places at once and you have, you know, 12 Zoom meetings a day. And if you can't figure out how to kind of laugh through that process, then it is it's gonna be really tough. Um and so I I think it's again core to that culture is you know, what's the environment you want to create? And then how do you help support your team members in that environment to avoid that burnout?

Craig Fahle: 43:52

I want to get your take on that too, Kim.

Kimberly Hoyle: 43:54

I agree. I think um leadership is really important in this, right? Um I think that I've been in a toxic agency environment and I I've seen how it impacts, you know, the the work from all angles and and how uh and I've seen people leave, you know, who have just not even been in the industry for five years. Um and so I think that when you have, you know, if you have a culture book like V VK and you actually um and it's not just shelfware, but it's actually the way that you do business, and it really matters, um, then I think people that, you know, people appreciate that there's, you know, there's thought put into um how I'm going to spend, you know, 60 to 70% of my time in an office with colleagues and people who are not my family. Um all of that matters and it and it shows up in the output, it shows up in how we treat each other, you know, in a corporate setting. And I think it can help it helps certainly with burnout because if you are getting up in the morning and you're like, oh God, I gotta go there today, it's you know, you the burnout comes very quickly before you even have enough on your resume to say, you know, I've been there, done that, and that's why I'm over it. Um, so I think leadership plays a significant role in um mitigating burnout with with their staff.

Craig Fahle: 45:28

Yeah. Well, so there are some of us that enjoy being, you know, bashed around like a ping pong ball, um, you know, from client to client on a daily basis. It sort of thrive on it. But uh okay. They love what you do. It it can be a lot of fun sometimes, and it's certainly energizing um in certain situations. But all right, so we've got about a minute left here, and I have one last question, um, and it's sort of open-ended, and you're gonna be annoyed by it. But one piece of advice that you would give to an agency owner who is listening right now.

Peter Van Dyke: 46:02

Starting with me.

Craig Fahle: 46:03

Starting with whoever wants to go first. I told you you'd be annoyed.

Peter Van Dyke: 46:09

This is tough. Um I'm trying to repeat things that we've we've already said. Um, but I'm gonna I'm just gonna take what Ray just said. You gotta love what you do. Um, you know, it's it's hard work. And um, I have the the great fortune of this is all I've ever wanted to do. And so I really don't know much different, and I and I love it. And you know, I've been pretty privileged to uh kind of have this role at this company. Um but you know, if you don't love what you do, you gotta leave. So sorry, Ray, I took yours.

Ray Day: 46:37

Uh I was part of a research study with an HR group once, and the what we were trying to determine is what's the half-life of a skill. And the end conclusion was three to five years. So any skill we have, any point we are in an agency or in a team, we become half obsolete every three to five years. So my advice to agencies is take that to heart. That means you as a leader, you as an agency, your team, you have to reinvent. And don't be afraid of reinventing, embrace it. But every three to five years, we're now in this warp speed cycle. And make sure you stay on top of what's next. What is my agency going to need to be in three to five years so that my value proposition is one that perpetuates growth?

Craig Fahle: 47:21

That's weird. This seems like something that the advertising agency needs to think about every once in a while. So um you see like over reliance on a certain client, and all of a sudden that company's gone. All right, go ahead.

Kimberly Hoyle: 47:32

Uh so yeah, I agree with both Peter and and Ray. Um and I would just add to that, um listen to your people. Um, I think that it's important to, you know, for people to be able to um have a voice, not necessarily, you know, open it up and and we're all kind of communal management, but I think listening to your staff and listening to those who are on the front lines every day um would would go a long way for um for growth and sustainability with your staff.

Craig Fahle: 48:06

Well, is there anything that I have sort of missed in this conversation that any of you wants to sort of chime in on real quick before we wrap this up today?

Ray Day: 48:14

Important discussion. And again, I just kind of end where I started. This is I've never been more excited about this business from a comm standpoint, from an agency standpoint, and from a business standpoint. And if you're not excited and you're in this business, you probably need to ask yourself that question love or lead what you do. But this is an exciting time, and we should all be having a blast.

Craig Fahle: 48:41

All right. Go ahead, Peter.

Peter Van Dyke: 48:42

Yeah, you know, I think one of my favorite quotes, and Craig has heard me say that many times, it's from my mentor, Bob Berg, but it's cordless business as well. Is when you need a friend, it's too late to make one. And so, you know, I've I I actually almost interviewed for Ray about 15 years ago and never made it to the last interview. Um I never knew about it. I I bowed out because I knew uh Ford was not my future. Um and but you know, years later, you know, I met Ray. Um, you know, he's been a great friend to me and a great mentor as we've developed V VK, you know, Kim and I have seen each other, you know, many a times throughout the Detroit business community and really just sat down to break bread about a week ago for the first time. Um and uh and I said, wait a minute, I have a great opportunity to uh to have a conversation with you on this podcast. So, you know, it's uh Detroit's a small community, but but it's a small global community as well. And I think, you know, it's when you need a friend state to make one. So make sure you make those friends along the way.

Craig Fahle: 49:39

Any parting words, Kim?

Kimberly Hoyle: 49:41

Uh I would just say, you know, relationships matter. And uh it's it's hard to cultivate real relationships, you know, via Zoom and um digitally. So I think, you know, getting back into um the office and really kind of engaging in a way that that we kind of since COVID, we've been a little hesitant to do it. But I think um relationships matter and people do business with people. And so if they don't, you know, if they don't know you, then it's gonna be really hard to to do business and grow. And so I would just um really put emphasis on cultivating, you know, nurturing and and seeking out new uh opportunities for for deeper relationship.

Craig Fahle: 50:26

Well, something that's I've just noticed recently, and it's taken a little while, but I'm starting to see people embracing the idea of coming back to the office, which as we coax them back in gently, um, instead of just saying everybody's back five days a week, it seems to be creating its own momentum, which is kind of nice. Well, I would like to thank, of course, Ray Day and Kimberly Hoyle and Peter Van Dyke for joining us today. We certainly appreciate it. Wonderful conversation. Thanks so much.

Ray Day: 50:50

Thank you.

Craig Fahle: 50:51

All right, this is the V VK Podcast. We'll see you again soon. And that's going to do it for the V VK Podcast today. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Give us your feedback, ideas, guest suggestions, or just let us know what you're thinking anytime. The email address is hello at vvkagency.com. Make sure to follow the show so you never miss an episode, and thanks again for spending part of your day with us. We'll see you next time on the VVK Podcast.